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"The April rain, the April rain,
Comes slanting down in fitful showers,
Then from the furrow shoots the grain,
And banks are fledged with nestling flowers;
And in grey shawl and woodland bowers
The cuckoo through the April rain
Calls once again."

Mathilde Blind, April Rain

Should people who put themselves in danger be rescued?

TeachTeach Your TeacherHomePosts: 10,394 mod
A recent story in the press reminded me of an article on the Network: https://learn-english.online/2014/11/22/travelarticle-walking-essentials/

Well, four tourists obviously hadn't read it.

Four (unnamed) tourists called 999 after getting lost on Ben Nevis, Britain's Highest mountain, in blizzard conditions, with winds of up to 100mph and windchill causing temperatures of -20C. Lochaber Mountain Rescue team, who rescued them, at risk of their own lives, said on their Facebook page that they had no ice axes, crampons and apparently no map, and were not dressed for winter mountaineering, three of them were only wearing trainers.

Should people who put themselves in danger be rescued? 5 votes

Yes
20%
Practical_Severard 1 vote
No
20%
Vok 1 vote
Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
60%
mheredgePauletteverom_gonzalez 3 votes

Comments

  • TeachTeach Your Teacher HomePosts: 10,394 mod
    During the recent terrible weather conditions in the UK, this is a hot topic.
  • Practical_SeverardPractical_Severard Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes
    I think such people should be rescued anyway, because that's about lives not money, and yes, they should be billed, but the rescue operation has to be unconditional nevermind they could collect the money or not. Probably, just a fraction of the price might be charged, so the stunt would be punished, what's more important then covering the costs.
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    This is also very relevant for anyone who likes hiking in the mountains anywhere. There have been a lot of helicopter insurance scams in Nepal lately too. Most people insure themselves when they go trekking (it is a requirement if they book with foreign travel agencies).
  • verom_gonzalezverom_gonzalez Posts: 8,301 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    We must be responsible for what we do and be aware that it can involve other people.
  • PaulettePaulette Posts: 26,002 mod
    edited February 27
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.

    I think people don't do this immoral. They start their walk without thinking,
    Perhaps it was just one-time tourists who started the walk and, because of their enthusiasm for the beauty of nature, had lost sight of both the time and distance they had already walked and who had indeed not prepared themselves and knew nothing about sudden changes in nature. These people wanted to be saved and had the right to ask for help and to be saved.
    But then it is still necessary for them to know which costs are all incurred for this and that they have to contribute to these costs.
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    I'm not sure but I think in France that rescue services are charged and so anyone hiking in the mountains needs to be insured. I have an insurance for this. It is not compulsory. I think like for skiing however, maybe it should be.
  • TeachTeach Your Teacher HomePosts: 10,394 mod
    @Paulette - Good point. In fact some people call this particular trail - the Tourist Track, and so people assume it is a nice little stroll.

    http://ben-nevis.com/walks/mountain_track/mountain_track.php
  • Practical_SeverardPractical_Severard Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28
    Yes
    Yesterday I read a Russian story much hyped by a liberal blogger. A taxi driver picked up a tipsy passenger at a night club and failed to awake him when they'd reached the address. He asked the help of a policemen crew who were driving by and they did it by trying to wake the passenger up with an electric stunner. The passenger died because of that, the police have been fired and a criminal inquiry against them is open.

    It seems a stupid story but in real life an emergency might refuse to go if you told them the person is drunk, a hospital reception ward might do as well, the person isn't actually ill, a police commanding officer might refuse a place in jail, they don't have them for every street bum who's done a minor misdemeanor of being drunk in a public place. A charity homeless shelter are hard to find and they might be full as well. The taxi driver could have searched the passenger pockets for a phone number or address of relatives, but if something had been lost he might have been accused of theft. The winter temperature is well below zero. One would hardly want to be on his place!

    So, you don't need to go to the mountains or somewhere else to put your life in danger.
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    @Practical_Severard using an electric stunner to wake someone up, however drunk they might be seems a very drastic thing to do. I would expect the policeman concerned should be facing a sentence of manslaughter at the very least.

    I don't understand why it was a police matter. I would have thought that if the taxi driver was unable to wake up his passenger, then the next port of call if there were no neighbours at the address he had been given, should have been the hospital.

    Life is dangerous! This is why I never walk under a ladder.
  • Practical_SeverardPractical_Severard Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28
    Yes
    mheredge said:


    I don't understand why it was a police matter. I would have thought that if the taxi driver was unable to wake up his passenger, then the next port of call if there were no neighbours at the address he had been given, should have been the hospital.

    Because here there is a great chance that a hospital would turn a drunk person down. Being intoxicated isn't considered an illness and no treatment is necessary. Being legless in a public place is a misdemeanor, that's why the police is relevant.
    Post edited by Practical_Severard on
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    If he was unconscious however @Practical_Severard, and really could not be woken up easily I still think that the hospital might be the best place to take him. There might have been a more serious problem and unless the taxi driver is a qualified medic, he wouldn't be expected to know. I think in the UK they might have a bit more patience with someone like this, but I don't know about other countries.
  • PaulettePaulette Posts: 26,002 mod
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    Here at the coast there is sometimes the problems with surfers, many of them need to be rescued because the waves are so strong and the surfers have ventured too far.
    When they are recued by the rescue helpers they have to pay. But yes the compulsory sports insurance covers these costs
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    I have to say that when I started my 'rando' (hiking) insurance cover, it did give me peace of mind. I think it is also a requirement of the group that I sometime go hiking with too.
  • amatsuscribbleramatsuscribbler Posts: 3,161 mod
    What about governments which put their citizens in danger?! This lot in the UK, well I won't say what should happen to them. >:)
  • VokVok Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭
    No
    I, for one, would dare answer no. Mainly because they put in danger a rescue team. Why should we care about those who are not care about others? They're grown enough to weigh up all the risks involved in their venture. What if the rescue time lost their lives trying to save those who'd voluntarily chosen this path? How would they be billed for that then?
  • PaulettePaulette Posts: 26,002 mod
    edited March 2
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    @Vok Why do you think that people who needs to be rescued don't take care of other people. Don't you think that sometimes there can happen you need to be rescued if you acted a bit act unthinking or if you are trying out some new things....
    And the rescue helpers are trained because it is their job. That they have a dangerous job, that is right but there are also others dangerous jobs example roofers.
    But that people who needs to be rescued have to pay is a normal thing because if you need a necessarry operation to be rescued than you also have to pay.
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    Fair point @amatsuscribbler. And @Vok, you have a very valid point too. Irresponsible behaviour by people who don't think about the consequences can often put other people at risk. I suppose it is only justified in that rescuers are either paid danger money or are prepared and know the risks.
  • VokVok Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3
    No
    @Paulette not all people who in need of rescue don't think about those who provide help. There're always people out there in dire need not because they've tried to fulfill their burning ambition of conquering the next apex, but jsut because they unfortunate to live in the middle of the disaster area, for examle, a war-torn, wildfire, flood, draught zone and etc. And a rescue team will never be short of work even if they forget for a moment of those dare-devils that have bitten this time more than they can chew. When you're going to do a bungee jump or parachut jump you're obliged to sign a waiver. I think the same kind of paper should be signed before doing any potentionally risky business.
    Post edited by Vok on
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    @Paulette there are many circumstances where people take risks that are not necessary. Like mountaineering, or even skiing. In these cases, they should take responsibility for ensuring their safety and in case of an accident, they should have insurance.

    I agree with @Vok to the extent that where someone is putting themselves at risk needlessly, that they should not expect that they will necessarily be rescued. In most cases when such risky adventures are undertaken, the organisers expect you to sign a waiver which I think is acceptable.
  • PaulettePaulette Posts: 26,002 mod
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    @Vok in situations of disaster areas you are right, but here in this context of the question it is about;"Should people who put themselves in danger be rescued?"
    I know there are people who are in danger without their will. And I have a lot of respect for the rescue teams in those areas.

    And yes if you consciously wanting to do dangerous sports or actions, such a paper must be countersigned.
    But sometimes things happen unintentionally .... so why could then these people not get help if such rescue teams exist....
  • VokVok Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3
    No
    @Paulette I see your point. I think there is no a definitive answer to this question. There're too many circumstances we have to take into consideration. Let's just agree to disagree :)
  • PaulettePaulette Posts: 26,002 mod
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    @Vok it is indeed an interesting point of discussions and we understand each other, and I like it. Thanks for this. :)

    If you have children then you can understand this problem either more. Some day your rescued child can be the most important in the whole world......
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    I think there is a tendency these days for many organisations like clubs or activity providers to be very cautious, in order to avoid the risk of financial liability. Life is dangerous, but when someone purposefully puts themselves into a risky situations like going out alone in the mountains, or going up high improperly equipped, then these people are acting irresponsibly.

    But then again, rescues can be big business if the helicopter scams in Nepal are anything to go by. Here guides colluding with rescue companies have been making a mint from false rescues where the insurance companies have had to fork out the price of helicopters bringing down trekkers who really should have been able to make it down under their own steam.
  • VokVok Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭✭
    No
    @Paulette when it comes to our loved ones it's hard to stay unbiased.
  • mheredgemheredge Posts: 42,562 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, but they should be billed for the rescue.
    I think an exception has to be made for children. They should be rescued without giving it a second thought. But then they are usually too young to really understand the consequence of their actions.
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